Hi all,

I realise the subject may suggest I am completely lost coming here (and yes a complete newbie!) but in fact it seems these days that flying scale aircraft ie unmanned, requires some of the same training as a 'true' pilot under CASA regulations. I say true pilot as of course I am never going to put myself in the same class as a real pilot.

In order to fly a scale aircraft for a business I work for, CASA have advised I need to start by completing the ground based theory PPL and "qualify for the issue of a Radio Operators Certificate of Proficiency".

I contacted a number of Training Schools in NSW (I am located in rural western NSW) and none of them had heard anything about UAV training. They all stated that their courses were designed for 'true' pilots and could not help.

Given I just need to pass the theory I was looking at purchase the resources offered by this website and sit the PPL at a CASA examination venue, but I read that I wouldn't be allowed to sit for PPL without BAK (I assume this is standard even though not a CASA requirement in my case). In addition to obtain BAK I read I need to have a student pilot licence and a flight log book. I am also not sure how I would qualify for the issue of a Radio Operators Certificate of Proficiency.

I realise this is out of left field but I am hoping from the knowledge here someone might be able to suggest the best way to obtain BAK/PPL/Radio Operators theory with the idea that I am not training to be a true pilot.

I appreciate your help.

Phil

Hi Phil,

Bit of a conundrum really! They say you need to sit the PPL? As you've said correctly you also need to pass the BAK. BUT.. to be awarded a pass in the BAK you need a minimum of 5 hours dual training.. There has to be another way!

The school I work at (in WA) does offer a course for workers in and around aerodromes and they need to do a multi choice exam and demonstrate they can operate a radio to a standard of '2' I believe, which is the standard for PPL.

According to this checklist I guess you'll need an ARN and $50.

This is what you'll need to fill out, which the school would do most of anyway. Thankfully you don't need an ASIC/AVID.

Perhaps when you call around mention that you're after an Aircraft Radiotelephone Operator Certificate (AROCP) as the whole UAV thing would come at a bit of a surprise. Maybe they thought you wanted them to teach you how to fly the UAV.

Anyway, have another ring around, somebody has to be giving these airport folk their AROCP's

Hope that helps mate!

Hi Phil

The person at CASA to contact regarding UAV's is Philip Presgrave - he is based in Brisbane and is very helpful. His email address is This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
They are looking at changing the rules, but it may not happen straight away.

Good Luck

Also Phil

I understand how you must feel about the ridiculous CASA requirements for the UAV qualifications. I have had many conversations with Canberra about it, but it appears someone down there has managed to make it a requirement. It seems such a pity that people like you have to pass the PPL exam to be able to operate UAVs in Australia. The material in PPL has nothing whatsoever to do with the skills required to operate a UAV. But wait! There's more!

If you want to operate a UAV beyond line of sight, you will have to pass the IREX [Instrument Rating] exam as well...
How crazy is that? Having said that, I have found Philip Presgrave to be helpful. Don't blame him - he has been given the task of implementing the current policy. Apparently CASA are working on a syllabus of knowledge that will be directed towards the UAV requirements.

Interesting topic.

Wouldn't it enhance an UAV-pilot's ability to safely fly an UAV remotely if he/she had experienced flying directly, even if it was the minimum amount of dual training?

I imagine it would offer greater situational awareness to the pilot of the UAV.

It may also offer a taste of what it feels like to be a pilot on board an aircraft in the vicinity of an UAV with no pilot on board (an ever increasing occurrence these days): unsettling, IMHO, especially if that UAV is out of line of sight of it's pilot!

Of course, it might even enhance my situational awareness if I did some UAV training as well.

rubber

Thanks for all the replies.

Just to clarify I am not having an opinion about the process, just trying to work out how to get through it.

I have been communicating with Philip Presgrave a fair bit and he has been very helpful. The problem I have having is getting my head around how the requirements translate into the standard schools programs and therefore what to ask for when contacting schools.

This is the extract from Philip's email detailing what I need.

"(2) A person is eligible to be certificated as a UAV controller if he or she:
(a) qualifies for the issue of a radio operator’s certificate of proficiency; and
(b) has been awarded a pass in an aviation licence theory examination (other than a flight radio operator’s examination); and
(c) has been awarded a pass in an instrument rating theory examination;

(3) A person who holds or has held:
(a) a flight crew licence with a command instrument rating; or
(b) a military qualification equivalent to a licence and rating mentioned in paragraph (a); or
(c) an air traffic control licence, or a military qualification equivalent to an air traffic control licence;

is taken to satisfy the conditions in paragraphs (2) (a), (b) and (c)".

Philip has mentioned that I can apply for a Instrument Rating exemption to meet 2(c). So If I use 3(a) as a guide I just need to obtain a flight crew licence. Forgive my ignorance but is that the same as PPL? And does PPL include radio operation?

I understand PPL can be completed by attending a CASA examination center but how does one obtain the BAK needed to sit the PPL?

I very much appreciate your time and thanks for trying to translate your real pilot world to my pseudo situation.

Regards

Phil

Thanks for the info Bob,

I notice that on the training.gov.au website there is now a Certificate III in Aviation (Remote Pilot) that has just come out but yet to be offered. As it stands I am not sure how this will impact on the licencing process ie will it be more or less difficult.

It is interesting how complex all this training is for the UAV Controller Certificate when in fact this is the easy part. Next up is applying for an operators certificate. Now there's a mountain of work and fees that makes the controllers certificate look like child's play..

Anyway I did say I am not here to offer my opinion.

Phil

I saw a "want ad" for a Geophysics firm that were advertising for a UAV operator and (if memory serves) they wanted a Commercial Licence.

IMHO that makes sense. It is a fairly substantial airframe (could take out another aircraft or seriously injure a person). It is being operated for gain. Operator needs to be aware of Flight Rules and Procedures.
Imagine if it were involved in an accident and the operator wasn't qualified ..

Cheers !!

WOW! I have been reading both the BAK and PPL books or the last few months, trying ever so hard to get my head around these concepts without a teacher, or flying a plane and by sheer self motivation alone and then I find this topic!
As an Aerial Photographer, I have been asked by my company to study for the PPL theory exam so I can get endorsed on our new UAV's.

Can anyone clarify if it is possible/legal etc to simply go and sit a PPL exam all by itself without first doing a BAK exam?

I have just emailed Philip myself to ask him some questions so I will let you all know what he says in reply.

Thanks Bob for the email address of a CASA rep and thanks Phil for bringing up his reply. I will try to get clarification from Philip about the BAK/PPL progression.

Guess I too will be following this topic with interest over the coming weeks.

Hi Mat,

One of the requirements for sitting the CASA PPL cyberexam is presentation of a logbook with a stamp confirming a BAK exam pass. However, the word now seems to be it is possible for UAV operators to apply for an exemption letter from CASA and this letter is enough to get them into the PPL exam without a BAK stamp in their logbook. Bob has a meeting with the guy from CASA after the current IREX course and we'll know more then so watch this space!

It still stands that BAK is just a subset of the PPL syllabus so you will still need to know that material anyway.

Cheers,

Rich

EDIT: changed to include the latest info from CASA regarding the BAK exemption letter