(exam Monday)

Hi Bob and Richard,

Look there was just one point of confusion on the course change calculations when using the 1 in 60 I had left that I cant easily resolve.

I am still not sure if you are supposed to add the CA and TE to the HDG or the TMG to get your new heading. When I look at the book, it would suggest the TMG, however you are not flying a TMG you are flying a HDG producing a TMG.

So lets say I had a 10 deg TE and a 5 deg CA so the course needed to change say 15 deg to the right, and my HDG is 90 but my TMG is 95 meaning that there is a 5 degree right drift.

Do I add the 15 degrees to the TMG or to the HDG to give me my new HDG (TTI).

I'm not giving myself a new TMG by design, I'm only giving myself a new HDG by design that I can head for based on the wetcompass and DI to intercept the FPT at the CA angle.

Any help if you read this would be appreciated, exam is on Monday

Thanks!

Brook

BTW the new exam preps are very useful and also now MAC friendly! Good on you all!

One terminology phrase I came unstuck on however relates to the word "Track".

Now this could be Track made Good, or it could be Flight Planned Track....

I am to assume therefore, judging by the questions I got wrong that Track in the instance of the way it has been asked is actually FPT.

Of course, in the USA this would be course, of course.

So would I be right in saying that "track" (when mentioned in an exam) means FPT?

Now in the case of a VOR or NDB approach (compared with DR) there is no TMG or track made good, correct?

This would instead be a radial. But the question I would ask is in relation to Ground based instrument approaches (as opposed to sky based GPS approaches) when the word Track is used is it STILL referring to FTP or the radial or tangential component that comes off the FPT at an angle?

Hi Brook. Closing angle is based on the difference between actual TMG. and the FPT (Track Required). Closing angle is a GROUND based calc.

Look at your heading flown and apply the closing angle, as the drift will remain (should remain) constant at least for next little while.

It is really easy to get confused about the Drift, Heading, Track definitions and how to apply them but just try and think in terms of what you want to achieve. is it a change in the air or on the ground that you are seeking to calculate? I find that keeping it simple is the best way. Bob's diagrams explain this very well and I used them in the exam. Plot the HDG and TMG (the cross swords diagram with the circle and square). This gives you drift left or right, then compare it to TR (FPT) to get TE and Closing Angle.

Drift (in the air) is simply applied to the HDG you fly to make sure that your TMG (on the ground) is correct.

Trust this is of some assistance.

Thanks Brenton, all very helpful angles indeed, particularly that relating to TMG vs FPT. I really do appreciate it.

I have a fair bit of it covered, my remaining issues seem to be do do with Terminology, and just getting my Vnav application perfected and wind angles procedures consistent.

This would confuse the heck out of many a US trained pilot, as a lot of the procedures and terminology is quite different.

Note that I have done both curriculum, I have done Australian BT (and read a bit of DH and Air Services / TT curric and Aussie Aviation College data, and some of Bristol for JAA), US Part 61 and 141 with King Schools (and read of bit of Gleim), but one seems to make more rational sense to me, the other seems a bit less organised and more old fashioned.

This is no refection of BT Training, Bob and Richard give some great and very useful perspectives on flying, they in my opinion they are by far the best in Oz (and Bobs Teaching background is invaluable in his approach), it is more the RELEVANCE of the training required by CASA as reflected in modern aircraft or airline procedures (after all I guess they will be the ones hiring). If you buy a Cessna with an ADF its a whole special add on these days...(see CASA syllabus vs "Integrated airline course")

We even call a Sectional Map a VNC (note the word sectional on the ruler) have our own protractor (square) for nav although it can be done on standard jepp ruler (although to be honest I am proud to use this gadget as an Aussie as its actually easier but It's still one more tool to carry), call a Course a track, and no mention of Wind Correction Angle or WCA. There are even two morse code standards, one for Civil and one Military out here.

Even a US built Cessna apparently is flown differently here compared to how it is instructed in the US, and rather than following manufacturer standards, we seem to invent our own rules of thumb and generic checklists that seem to differ flight school to flight school quite often

It was only just recently (in the last couple of years) that CASA FINALLY agreed to allow AD's to be recognised from the country (state) of manufacture.

(I'm born and bred Australian BTW)

Maybe after this I will enroll in a US Sextant training course, as well as Morse code

I guess that what I see is that if it not necessary to change something, for the sake of standardisation it is necessary not to change it. Maybe we could start with Language and Imperial tool sizes to Metric

BTW I was discussing this issue with a bloke / engineer at NASA in the US and he actually said my criticism was valid (it was intially intended as a politically incorrect joke), a big thing with the International Space station that made progress hard was on joining different modules from the US with those of Europe. "Houston, we have a problem, we need a metric spanner set, next ETA to supply delivery?"

Thanks for that - and listening to my winge, I sound like an old bloke already at 37 and I am really enjoying the process of learning my CPL, just having a rational moment of frustrated collation pre exam

Good on you for continuing to be there for support Brenton, and thanks for your reply prior to the exam! B and R are normally right there, but I imagine with all the stuff they have going on at the moment (with etexts and multimedia) and my list of Nav questions in the forum they are probably both worn out

Brook

Hi guys,

Thanks for jumping in there and helping out Brenton and sorry we didn't get on to your question earlier, Brook. I've just arrived back in Oz from Germany so I've been offline for a couple of days whilst in transit. Now all I need to do is get over my jetlag. In fact, after writing this I shall grab a shower and hit the sack - not just to sleep off the jet lag but also to recover from the long welcome party with Bob and the gang last night

Good luck with your exam Brook!

Cheers,

Rich

Thanks Richard,

Sprechen Ze Deutsche? So I WAS right about the worn out part, just for reasons other than that I had imagined!

Just don't mention the war! (It's OK my wife is half German). I love their tools, engineering and science. Hope you got some useful ideas for us here in Oz, I'm amazed by their discipline as race.

Wishing you pleasant rest as you practice your biological UTC conversion

Brook

PS: Did LMT to UTC to Local time come up at last nights party at all

PPS: Maybe CPL Nav would be a great Multimedia course down the "track" OMG its time to get back to the books.

I passed!!!! Thanks Bob, Richard and Brenton!

I got 88%, but I would have to say I would not have unless having first practicing the cyber exams.

Lessons Learnt for anyone else about to do Nav from my experience in the exam:

(the exam started 15 minutes late thanks to a student who was late, but that didnt phase me as I had a deliberately slow breakfast, shower, some minor revision, then a leisurely drive out to the testing centre, and got there over 45 mins early.

Whilst waiting for the late student at the exam desk, I kept my fingers on my pulse, practiced breathing and reduced my pulse rate, it was actually really nice and the lady in the exam booth gave me the idea when we were talking.)

OK just like Navigation it pays to have at least two data sources in some cases, I'll be blowed when it asked me to find the ground frequency that I could use to cancel a sarwatch at a particular cert aerodrome that was in ERC, I saw the Aerodrome and frequency details, but not a CTR etc, but found it in ERSA EVEN THOUGHT THE QUESTION SAID TO USE ERC.

I did this on a few questions, just to make sure I had reliable and matching data from both sources. OK, call me a skeptic but I know I would rather have two separate Nav sources when IFR in cloud on decent....

Two things that will save you time in the exam, as the Nav exam involves some degree of math, so you need to get relatively quick at a couple of things, so:

get to know all aspects of 1 in 60, bearing in mind the only one that is different (the rest all use TE PLUS CA) is the converging one in sixty which is TE MINUS CA, and yes I did have a question on this one).

get to know the effect of flying north and south relative to summer and winter (thanks Brenton)

Remember to save time you need to be quick at the VNAV exercises, which can easily be done by simply identifying the lowest altitude, and the highest altitude, and then get the difference between them. Divide that difference by the Foot Per Minute ROC or ROC then relate that back to a groundspeed.

Now one that was important for me was knowing the practical but ever so slight difference between:

1) using the Nav computer to find HEADING and GROUND SPEED - Page 3.6 of BT NAV and
2) using the Nav computer to find the ACTUAL WIND IN FLIGHT - Page 4.46 of BT NAV

Lastly one more I can recall clearly from the exam, if asked to identify objects that are projecting into a Controlled Airspace Zone, just remember there are other types of airspace out there other than Class C and sometimes they are right on top of one another....

Wow - that was a great workout for me, more so than any of the Aerody, Met, AGK that I have done so far..

Good luck to each of you determined enough to get through this one self study!!

Brook

Hey Brook! Congratulations on the pass and thanks again for an excellent guide for fellow students. Nav can be a tricky exam that's for sure but 88% means you well and truly nailed that one. Great work.

Onwards and ever upwards mate!

Cheers,

Rich

P.S. Ja, Deutsch kann ich ein bisschen. Speaking German is always easier than writing it so I'll stop there

Thanks Richard,

It was really a relief to get it over with. Certainly puts your brain to work this one whilst in the learing and in the exam phase! Doing HPL now, just waiting for the Ipad 3 and then I'll get Air Law on E-text as well and Perf (the whole kit).

If I buy an Etext can you print an etext if you wish to study the old fashioned way then search for key words in the etext? Eg as in Air Law? Or do you buy BOTH the etext and also the book?

Brook