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Generic enquiry re the CASA exam MCQ system

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Flightsurgeon created the topic: Generic enquiry re the CASA exam MCQ system

The CASA exam questions are based on the MOS, however there is no defined syllabus as such that I can find.

When I asked the chief examiner at CASA in relation to this, the reply was there is only a MOS and no syllabus and therefore my dilemma is this.

When generating an MCQ, it has to have a known source and then able to be scrutinized so that the answer conforms to a known source that is a syllabus item.

The classic point is the question is what I mentioned earlier in an enquiry, what is the best information source for doing the initial inspection, the POH or AFM... The answer is no where to be found ( easily ) , I still cannot find this

Therefore the main questions are

1. How are questions generated?

2. Apart from the text books Tait, VFGR, Part 91, what are the souces of questions and can these be cross checked if there is an answer disagreement with the CASA answer

Im just really baffled by the fact there is no actual syllabus. If questions were generated from a know source(s) , then the source of question and answer is able to be checked.

Could someone please assist with this.

Kind regards

Ravi Mahajani
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Stuart Tait replied the topic: Generic enquiry re the CASA exam MCQ system

Ravi

The learning requirement is outlined in CASR Part 61 MOS, Schedule 3 and is referred to as the Aeronautical knowledge standards it is as close to a syllabus, as it defines the subjects and topics to be examinable, as this link to one of the BAK requirements for RPL provides www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2021C004...lume_3#_Toc395460855

As for question generation we can only speak for ourselves that it is based upon covering the requirements in the part 61 MOS.
When it comes to CASA and the PEXO system we as an organisation have no access to any of the question bank, no formal review of any exam, CASA actively discourages any discussion of the exam and questions outside the exam room. This is the system we have to work with.

Any disagreement you have with a question has to be appealed to the chief examiner.
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  • John.Heddles
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John.Heddles replied the topic: Generic enquiry re the CASA exam MCQ system

Ravi,

If I may add to Stuart's observations.

It is clear from your questions, that you are used to, and have been raised on, a diet of academic and training rigour.

Unfortunately, practical flying training (including the theory aspects) lies toward to the other end of the spectrum. Due, I suggest, to the early history of flying, such academic work as was done generally was external to aircraft coalface activities. England, for instance, from which we derive our flying history, was a bit of a late starter in aeronautics and, should one go back to pre-WW1 days, was significantly behind the good folk in Germany, especially Prandtl and his colleagues at Göttingen. Another of the early difficulties related to poor communications which encouraged the somewhat parochial development of quasi-theoretical ideas as to why things occurred with these new-fangled aeroplane contraptions.

One result was that a relatively large body of non-rigorous tales developed and became endemic in training activities. Some of these ideas have proved to be incredibly resistant to change in the face of academic knowledge. For example, in various, non-academic pilot training material, you will find ideas relating to matters such as the development of lift. You may see stories which purport to suggest that airflow above/below a wing somehow meets up at the trailing edge. While this is correct for the nil lift case it is, otherwise, arrant nonsense. Likewise, you will see stories suggesting that the Coandă effect is a material component of lift generation. Actually, no, albeit that a corollary observation is much the same as aspects of what we see in aerofoil section airflow (which are explained by considerations not related to Coandă's work). The sad thing is that the scientific world has had a good handle on lift for around 100 years but most of that still hasn't filtered through to pilot training.

And so it goes on ...

The end result is that you don't find the sort of rigorous syllabus detail in flying training that you are used to from academia. I can recall, as a young chap many years ago, the civil theory syllabus consisted of a very rudimentary, non-detailed, list of topics in the then ANO 40. The current iteration of that document's lack of detail is in the Part 61 MOS. Unfortunately, that "syllabus" is about the state of play and, largely due to the lack of detail, we see the proliferation of various strange ideas in theory work.

I guess the important question for the bulk of student pilots is "does this really matter" ? The answer is along the lines of "probably, not really". The pilot does not need to be an aeronautical engineer, aerodynamicist, or physicist. Rather, he/she needs to have a bit of an idea of what is going on but, far more importantly, be able to apply that rudimentary knowledge, in a practical manner, to the task of causing an aeroplane to do its thing while maintaining a reasonably constrained risk profile.

A consequence for university technical graduates, is that we just have to put up with the system's procedural deficiencies. That is not to say that folk who wish to get more of the detailed story can't do so - there are numerous rigorous texts available, many on the net for no cost, which will provide detailed entertainment for hours.

However, and unfortunately, sometimes the examination questions perpetuate the historical fallacies and the knowledgeable candidate must be able both to know the correct story and the not-quite-right story required for the examination pass.

Just a fact of life, I guess, unfortunate though it may be.

When I asked the chief examiner at CASA in relation to this, the reply was there is only a MOS and no syllabus and therefore my dilemma is this.

There is no syllabus in the rigorous sense that you seek. In present parlance, the MOS is what we have and that is pretty superficial.

When generating an MCQ,

I presume you are relating this back to the AMC MCQ examinations. While I have no experience of that, I can only suggest that what one might see in those examinations, and the CASA examinations, are at opposite ends of the rigour spectrum.

The classic point is the question is what I mentioned earlier in an enquiry, what is the best information source for doing the initial inspection,

Unfortunately (and this is more pointed since the rule changes last year), often you won't find a single reference to address a question. Hence one needs a catholic knowledge of the full suite of aviation regulations and ancillary documents to find something akin to an answer. Even then there are internal CASA determinations which further muddy the waters. Just the way things are, I'm afraid.

if there is an answer disagreement with the CASA answer

Unfortunately, that is one of the principal difficulties with which we are faced. We have little or no visibility of the CASA view on life. In years gone by, the system was far better, in that the examinations were made available to the Industry after they had been used. Further, there were periodic Post Exam Review Meetings where DCA (as CASA was, then) could be challenged on question integrity.

Im just really baffled by the fact there is no actual syllabus. If questions were generated from a know source(s) , then the source of question and answer is able to be checked.

Many of us echo your plea ... just a burden with which we must contend, I fear.

Engineering specialist in aircraft performance and weight control.
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Flightsurgeon replied the topic: Generic enquiry re the CASA exam MCQ system

Thank you Stuart and John
I have read the legislation.
From the feedback, it would safe to say, therefore there is no syllabus and hence this exam is therefore poorly structured.
For example, I could ask a question that related to the 2.7 ( e) 1 , lens characterises in myopia, hyperopia , astigmatism..
along the lines

Select the incorrect answer

1. Amblyopia is a complication of Astigmatism
2. Keratoconus causes regular astigmatism
3. Chromosome 4q12 is associated with corneal astigmatism
4. Astigmatism may affect a pilot after cataract surgery

Now, according the the MOS, this question woud be fair game.
The problem is that most pilots ( and doctors ) would have no idea.. unless the pre reading referenced this article. Then its a level playing field.


I find it most curious, that with CASA as an organization that sets an exam, that there is no defined reading material for the exam.
Furthermore I acknowledge the orgins of flying. I appreciate that the exam and flying are divergent and flying has technical origins.
However, we surgeons have started off as barbers a few centuries ago and have moved on and I having sat MCQ after MCQ days on end, at least knew the source texts and had known that the questions are derived from a source.

Anyhow, I will therefore press on but find it simply astounding that no one from academia or any other organization has scrutinised and asked for a please explain from CASA

By the way, according the paper I read, the anwer to the above question is (2)

Kind regards
Ravi Mahajani MBBS, FRCS, FRACS
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  • John.Heddles
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John.Heddles replied the topic: Generic enquiry re the CASA exam MCQ system

Ravi,

Indeed.

it would safe to say, therefore there is no syllabus and hence this exam is therefore poorly structured.

I would go along with your thoughts. I have discussed some matters with the examiner and, I suggest, he is constrained in a number of ways as to what he can do with the exam.

I find it most curious, that with CASA as an organization that sets an exam, that there is no defined reading material for the exam.

If I may be permitted to reflect upon some history. I referred to the old ANO 40 syllabus. When I decided I should complete my, then SCPL (now ATPL), examinations I diligently reviewed the ANO material, obtained and studied the cited textbooks and then thought about the exams in much the same way you would have approached the AMC hurdles. Albeit now 50-odd years since then, I well recall my first exam (aircraft flight planning). Now, I went into the exam with a pretty high standard of knowledge of what was covered in the textbooks. Imagine my surprise to find that the exam bore a negligible resemblance to the ANO or textbooks. After that debacle I discovered that one could obtain copies of past papers with sample solutions prepared by Industry folk who knew the then system. The next exam sitting was a doddle.

Things have not changed materially.

The student should be aiming at two goals; first, acquiring a suitable level of technical knowledge and understanding of the subject and, second, passing the exam.

The first is problematic as much of what is passed off as Industry instruction is flawed. A large part of the problem is that ignorance begets ignorance and many popular, if not-quite-right tales are passed from one generation of students to another. In many cases, instructors have little, if any, rigorous study background such as one would expect from the usual tertiary education system. As a side interest to my flying and engineering, I have been long involved with pilot theory training. It has been my observation that many of those purporting to be instructors, and many of the documents purporting to be reference text material, really don't pass muster. As a consequence, the first training goal may be lacking in its level of attainment unless the student is fortunate enough to have instructors who have a suitable level of technical competence and the students are guided to useful and more in-depth study material for their personal PD.

The second is not terribly difficult as one can obtain sufficient information relating to the sort of questions asked in the examination so that the candidate can struggle to a level where a pass might be achieved, sometimes in spite of whatever level of technical competence might be present. Unfortunately, there are those instructors out there who see no value in the first goal and direct their attention solely to the second. Additionally, there are many students who find that to be a perfectly acceptable approach and that, really, is a great tragedy.

but find it simply astounding that no one from academia or any other organization has scrutinised and asked for a please explain from CASA

Unfortunately, the history indicates that CASA, and its predecessor organisations, are not subject to the sort of control we might see with other government organisations. The reality is that one just has to grin and bear it.

As a side note, my abysmal level of physical beauty is well beyond the reasonable ability of plastic surgery to rectify otherwise I might have had cause to consult with you professionally. Best of good fortune, though, with your flying endeavours - you will find the game to be great fun and, I daresay, a useful distraction from the everyday work rigours.

Engineering specialist in aircraft performance and weight control.
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Flightsurgeon replied the topic: Generic enquiry re the CASA exam MCQ system

Thanks John,
I am more of a reconstructive surgeon in relation to the last comments.
The chief examiner is not constrained it is their obligation and immense responsibility to ensure that the exam is correct. If this is an organisation that delves on safety and standards, the exam falls well below an acceptable and safe standard for exam conduct.
I don't buy excuses in this regards. We don't accept this of our examiners when examining candidates that sit for fellowship exams to become surgeons and our examiners must justify to a court of examiners why a candidate fails. It is a rigorous process because lives are at stake.
It may be veiled as a Manual of Standards, but this Manual is no more than an index and then a " find your own contents" scenario and good luck to you.

Kind regards

Ravi
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  • John.Heddles
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John.Heddles replied the topic: Generic enquiry re the CASA exam MCQ system

You're starting to get the picture and, unfortunately, it is very unlikely to see any change any time soon. Those of us who have lived a lifetime with it have had to accommodate the consequent problems as best we have been able.

Engineering specialist in aircraft performance and weight control.
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