first of all, a big thanks to you Rich for taking the time to get back to me and give me a hand so soon to recieving my message on here. Was great to see a reply so soon after feeling a bit down after my failure on friday. You certainly lifted my spirits.
CAR 14O answers my question in plain english, and i even had the heading highlighted in my copy of the CAR...
ENR 1.1 57.2.5 gives me the answer to my question on the inter and tempo. Up until now i really only thought that it applied if it also stated somethinbg which was going to affect 'my' flight. But in here it says whenever the forecast is endorsed with either inter or tempo the 30 or 60 min hold applies. In the question i had listed above, i would not need to suply an altn would i, just 60min holding OR an Altn would have been the correct answer. No altn req as the specific details werent listed. Is this right?
With regards to the altimeter, that must have been the answer i got to after thinking about it for a while as i didnt get it on my kdr. Thanks for explaining it though.
Thanks bob for your input on the broadcast and report section, i'll have to go back over those things in my re study for fridays exam. I can find enfo in GEN 3.4 and also ENR 1.1 as well as your book. Anywhere else i should look?
Thank you both very much for all your help this far.
Hi Rossy,
Some confusion has arisen here and that's my fault I'm afraid.
The presence of a TEMPO or an INTER do not automatically mean you need to plan for an alternate or carry holding fuel - the conditions in the TEMPO or INTER still need to be bad enough to require an alternate.
In other words, the TEMPO or INTER conditions must be worse than those values described in ENR 1.1.57.2.1.
As for the Cb, their presence in the TAF would not automatically make you require an alternate (unlike TS which would require an alternate or holding). Also unlike what I first mentioned in my post, they would have to mention the base of the CB in the TAF. Is it possible you missed that? Can you remember any more specifics that might help clear this up?
Cheers,
Rich
EDIT: I have also corrected my original post
oh ok then. It only said that there was a forecast that contained 'tempo SCT CB'
which of the following apply.
a no req
b altn req
c 30 min hold req
d 60 min hold req
or something to that effect. Since thre was bugger all detail i just chose no hold or altn req im pretty sure?
Had it contained tempo and had cloud base at a certain low level or something i would have been anle to answer it correctly as i know the altn req's etc
Hi Rossy,
As the question stands it doesn't make much sense. I've had a chat with Bob about it as well and he agrees that TEMPO SCT CB is simply not enough information. They should have given some kind of cloud base and if they didn't, SCT still isn't enough cloud cover to require an alternate or holding. It would have to be more than SCT below the alternate minima. The presence of CB doesn't indicate a need for an alternate or holding (compare that to TS which definitely does indicate that).
Apart from that, even if there were conditions below the alternate minima, both (b) and (d) would be correct answers since you can have either an alternate or holding fuel.
One thing Bob suggested: is it possible that alternates turned up on your KDR not because of this question but because of another one and it was that question you got wrong?
Cheers,
Rich
Exactly my thought when reading this answer so thats why i was confused.
This KDR code only corresponds to one question that i can recall getting. I cant remember any other questions relating to 2.8.7.3
The TEMPO SCT CB with no other info on cloud base or anything i can be 99% sure of. Shame i cant remember or even find out the exact wording. I thought it was very ambiguous. Perhaps someone else has had the question and can shed some light. I guess theres a chance that i missed something but i remember being amazed at how little info as contained in the question and pondered exactly what they wanted me to base my decision on?
OK, we'll have to put this one in the "mystery question" compartment until it crops up again. Definitely strange.
Hi Rossy Bob And Richard
Just having a browse and spotted your question on alternates.I sat this exam last week,fortunately i passed with 88% but one of the questions i got wrong was this same question as you are discussing and it was how rossy described it:tempo sct cb thats all it gave,i selected no alternate required and got it wrong, my only thought was that when cb are forecast a alternate is required? Had me confused too.
Anyhow back to study,performance last subject.By the way Thanks Bob for A great website to access info and feedback,has made life easier knowing there is support when required.
Dave
Dave, thanks very much for posting. We'll have to look into this further.
Cheers,
Rich
There is no doubt that there is a difference between Cumulonimbus cloud, CB, and thunderstorms, TS. CB is a cloud type while TS is a weather event. It is true that you cannot have a thunderstorm unless you have a cumulonimbus cloud, however, you can certainly have a cumulonimbus cloud without a thunderstorm.
If a TAF contains CB in the cloud section but does not mention TS in the weather section there is no reason to apply any operational requirement [holding or alternate fuel] unless there is more than 4/8 of cloud below the alternate minimum ceiling. However the AIP says [ENR 1.1 57.2.5] that any mention of TS imposes the OPR no matter what the cloud amount and height may be.
If the exam was marking you wrong for saying that SCT CB would not impose an alternate requirement, then they have got it wrong. I have contacted a number of respected IFR test officers for their opinion and they all agree that CB alone, with no mention of TS, does not impose an alternate requirement.
I answered the same as dave i believe. My interpretation was that no operation requirement existed since there was no other info and the info that was supplied wasnt enought to impose any requirement Definitely no mention of TS and no mention of cloud height or anything. SCT CB only to the best of my knowledge.
Hey Rich, whilst im at it, i have a question regarding flight time limitations.
With regards to CAO 48 para 1.17. If a pilot sets out to do a tour of duty of say 12 hrs and then has a day off, then the following day (say 3rd day) completes another tour of duty of say 11.5 hrs then how long does the period of rest after this second extended tour of duty need to be before he can complete a tour of duty of the usual 11hrs?
Are the requirements for this just the same as those listed in para 1.7 so it would be plus the additional 2 hrs (coz of the .5hrs over 11) and thus become 11 or 12 hrs depending what hrs are embraced or what? Sorry if this sounds a bit confusing.
I understand the requirements associated with normal tour of duties and also tour of duties that aren't rostered in excess of 11 hrs but become longer due to some other factor like holding or diversions but i just cant be sure on what the requirements are after completing an extended (para 1.17) flight with regards to the necessary time of rest required before one could complete a normal 11 hr tour of duty again.
Thanks in advance
Providing you are VFR and below 5700kg, you may do a tour of duty of up to 15hr. You cannot do two consecutive such tours unless you have 24 hours rest between them. e.g. either side of your day off. As for the rest after the second extended tour of duty, there would be no penalty for exceeding the normal 11hr since these extended tours of duty are permitted for VFR below 5700kg. The next rest would simply be a 'normal' rest of 9hr including the hours of 10pm to 6am or 10hr.
Hi Bob
Did you end up getting resolution on the Air Law exam question that everyone was getting wrong where it says, is an Alternate required or 60 mins holding or both or neither if the forecast says TEMPO SCT CB? I have my AirLaw exam on Wednesday and after reading the posts am confused how to answer it if it comes up. Everyone else seems to have entered the correct answer but got it wrong.
Gidday benelong
I can't get a clear answer from CASA on that one. They keep giving me someone else to contact. I must admit that it is a bit of an academic argument, and in practice it would be advisable to treat CBs as always having thunderstorm weather associated with them. If you have previously answered that question and been marked incorrect, maybe it would be wise to answer that CBs automatically impose the OPR even if TS is not mentioned.
I can't for the life of me understand why the wording in AIP ENR 1.1 para 58.2.5 doesn't just say that. Anyway, good luck with the exam - please let us know how you go....
Bob
I posed the question to Bill Whitworth and three of his senior instructors and they all answered that you need an alternate or 60minutes hold. When I told Bill about the TS rule he scratched his head and pondered. All the instructors said that CB basically turns into TS and hence the requirement. They backed this up with AIP 1.1 88 "when TS or their associated severe turbulence or their probability is forecast...". this was good enough for them and they were all posed the question individually. I can see their point now.
Also you have a question repeated in your book a few times asking, In the last 6 days you have flown 23 hours. You are not restricted by the flight time limits of 30 or 365 consecutive days. Today you may fly for a maximum of 8hrs, 3hrs, 7hrs or 2hrs?
The answer you give is 7hrs. I know you can only fly for 30 hrs in a week but your question states (oddly) that you are NOT restricted by the 30 hour rule, hence you should be able to fly for the normal 8hrs in any day. What am I missing here, have I read the question wrong, is it something to do with a day off or what?
Thanks Martin
